FIFTH DAY. Wednesday, March 17, 1837. MEMBERS PRESENT. Baines, Mr. Hume, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Miles, Mr. W. Freemantle, Sir T. Mosley, Sir O. Gordon, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Graham, Sir J. Scrope, Mr. Harvey, Mr. Villiers, Mr. Hodges, Mr. Walter, Mr. Mr. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair,

FIFTH DAY. Wednesday, March 17, 1837. MEMBERS PRESENT. Baines, Mr. Hume, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Miles, Mr. W. Freemantle, Sir T. Mosley, Sir O. Gordon, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Graham, Sir J. Scrope, Mr. Harvey, Mr. Villiers, Mr. Hodges, Mr. Walter, Mr. Mr. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair,

84 M. J. L. ELLIS again examined. him was 100/. Thesalary to be received hy the new oflicer is 75l.; he undertaking the 1711. By llr. MILES.] All ext...

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84

M. J. L. ELLIS again examined. him was 100/. Thesalary to be received hy the new oflicer is 75l.; he undertaking the 1711. By llr. MILES.] All extra allowances same charge as Mr. Hale received 100l. for. of meat, sago, isinglass, and so on, are given 1503. Has this new medical gentleman undera medical order?—Yes, but I think been engaged at 4d. a head ?-No ; he made the of!icer does not act under the relieving his own tender to take the duty at 751. The medical order, except through the order of conversation of 4d. a’head operated upon the board of guardians ; first, the medical the minds of many of the guardians, that it book is to us, and there is then presented would be thought proper by the commis- written in that book, by the guardians, what sioners, and perhaps that we might have it is necessary for the sick patient to have. directions to advertise for new surgeons at 1713. Have you had the influenza much the end of every year, and therefore they in your union?—Very much. did advertise for a surgeon this year. 1714. Has it not been necessary, in the 1507. You received no order from the treatment of sick to order meat and Poor Law Commissioners upon the subject? diet more than patients, you generally allow?—Yes; - No, certainly not; but Mr. Hawley ex- but we have been in the habit of giving to pressed an opinion that we were giving too the wife the money to buy that nutriment, much to our medical man. In the other dis. except flour. Where a person has been ill, trict of the Petworth Union, the gentleman and his family, with the influenza, we have who has been our medical man from the be- allowed a certain portion of money, and a ginning continues to be so. There was no certain portion of flour to feed the family other tenderer. He came and said he was with. williug,to perform the duties for this year at 1715. But supposing the medical oflicer the same rate as last year, at 901., and lie conceives it necessary that nutriment should was elected. be sent to the patient, would they wait for 1513. Do you consider that the sick poor the board to order that?—We should not rehave been properly attended to by him !-I quire it; but I do not recollect an instance do. VI here a surgeon has ordered that. 1514. Do you consider that the weekly 1905. By Mr. SCROPE.] Do you find any in, returns of the poor that have been attended crease of mendicancy in your neighbourhood by the medical man, give a security that they since the new Poor Law ?—I think not, in our have been properly attended ?-It is so far a union ; but we certainly have more mendisecurity, as it tells the guardians who are cants come from other unions, who say that sick, and gives us an opportunity to inquire they are in a state of starvation, things that whether the persons are ill who are stated we never heard of; women coming from our to be ill. neighbouring unions I meet frequently. 1516. What salary would the 4d. a head 1906. You mean that there are a greater have produced?—I do not know what the number of vagrants and travellers ?—No, population is. not vagrauts, because I do not call those 1518. It would make 1501. for the two persons vagrants; but, owing to the presdistricts’?-Then,aswe had been giving 190l., sure of the Poor Law, there is certainly that would have reduced it 401. great distress in our neighbouring unions. 1532. Before the new law, was not con1915. By Mr. HARVEY.] Do they assign’ siderable expense incurred by the suspended as a reason for their begging, that they can orders upon removal?—Yes; but that is the get no relief ?--Yes, that they can get neisame now, because the suspended order wasther relief nor work ; I might state a paronly used when the party was so ill that heticular circumstance. In October I went could not be removed. into the parish of Iping to take an inquest; 1533. Would that be the same now, if theas I was returning on what they call the medical contract provides that the medicalMarsh I overtook I thought lie was man shall attend, not only those belonging ill, and I said, " What is the matter looking to the particular parish, but all those resi-with you, my friend ?" he said, "have dent within it?—Certainly not, so far as me-nothing the matter with me, Sir, I am very dical relief is concerned. well." I said, " You look very ill ;" and he said, " Yes, because 1 can get neither FIFTH DAY. work nor relief, and I have hardly the means of subsistence, and therefore I am reduced March 17, 1837. Wednesday, in this way." MEMBERS PRESENT. 1916. By Mr. J. PONSONBY.] Do not you Hume, Mr. Baines, Mr. believe that all those men might have gone Mr. W. Miles, Estcourt, Mr. into the workhouse if they liked!—They Mosley, Sir O. Freemantle, Sir T. might, probably, but they will almost starve Gordon, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. before they go into the workhouse. Scrope, Mr. Graham, Sir J. Villiers, Mr. Harvey, Mr. HENRY SOPP. Walter, Mr. Hodges, Mr. the Mr. FAZAKERLEY in Chair, 1975. Examined the CHAIRMAN.] Are

a man;

by

85 2132. Did you never receive any private youa parishioner of Kirdford, in the Petworth Union?—Yes. charity; is nothing ever given to you at 1977. Married?—Yes. Age?—Forty- Christmas by your richer neighbours?—No. 2133. Do none of your richer neighbours seven. Wife’s age?—Forty. How many children!-Seven ; the eldest child aged giiyou anything ?-No. 2136. By ilir. HUME.] Are the Committee sixteen; the next, twelve. Four of them at present are at home ; the eldest is in service. to understand that voit have never bacon or The other two were taken from me a week meat of any kind in the house ?-I have no meat, no butter, and no cheese, and no-tea, ago, and put into the poor-house. L987. Are you a labouringman?—Yes; I nor any sug’ar; I left my wife, last Wedneswas a soldier eight years. day, with nothing but bread in the house. 2137. What do you drink ?-Water. 1991. What wages do you earn ?—Ave2138. Is that your only drink ?-That has raging lately 9s. 6d. a week, under the surbeen the case for some weeks ; to-morrow veyor of the roads. i99(). Upon those wages, what family night I shall take my pay, aud procure racan you maintain in tolerable comfort!- ther better necessaries, because I shall have Upon 10s. I can support myself, wife, and a few pence to spare, after I have paid for three children; but not to say that!I have my fiour; my flour this week will stand me in 7s. 3d. the whole necessaries of life. 2t3-1. By Mr. ESTCOURT.] Are there any 1997. In case of sickness you would be penny medical clubs in your ueighbourexposed to dilliculty !-Y es. 2072. By Mr. HARVEY.] What have you hood ?-No. wherewith to supply your family with tea, JAMES CLEMENTS. cheese, butter, soap, tiring, candles, clothes, beer?—Nothing. in Petworth, under Lord labourer [A 2073. Then, in fact, do you and your His introductory evidence was Egremollt. family go without those things?—We went similar to that of Henry Sopp.] without it, and have been without it for the 2258. Examined by the CHAIRMAN.] Have last three mouths, and are without it till had any sickness in your family?—Yes, you this time. have been bad with the innuenza. 2080. How many hours in the day do you my family 2239. Did you receive any mectical aswork ?—Ten. sistance?—Yes, the relieving officer set my 2083. Do you feel from your labour the name do" n, and then I went to Mr. Haile, want of the nourishment of beer and meat? and received medical assistance as much as —Ido. was necessary. 2084. Then, do you and your family, 2261. How far do you live from the docas especially yourself, a working man, have tor?-A mile. that support which you feel you require to 2262. When vour children were ill of this carry out your daily labour?—I have not that has been going about, and complaint and I could not have it. got it, the doctor attended you, did he order any2101. If you or either of your family thing but medicine, any better food?—No; were ill, what distance would you have to he said I should get nourishing things for go for a doctor?-If I had to go to Petworth and I could not do it. them, I should have to go four miles. 2263. Did he order them?—No, lie never 2109. How do you purchase your clothes ordered them, but I begged one gentleman ?-At harvest, or in to for yourself and give me a little gruel. we send the people any extra time like 2264. That was private charity ?-Yes. to look out for such things; but when you 2263. The doctor sent you medicine for are depending upon your daily labour you the children?—Yes. can purchase nothing, not a bit of clothes, if have a family. you EDWARD PULLEN. 2115. Are all the other labourers in the I 2368. By the CHAIRMAN.] To what parish same situation as you are ?-A constant labourer at a farm-house may have the little do you belong?—To Kirdford. 2369. Your age ?—My age is 43. priviteges of milk, or brotli, or anything that 2383. Your employment?—I work for is made in the house. 2116. How do you supply your family Lord Egremont; my standing wages is 10s., with milk?—I have none, except in summer but my lord gave us ll.s. 6d., having large families. time I may have two-penny worth a week. 2460. By ".N-Ir. SCROPE.] Are you in pretty 2119. How is your flour baked?—We have au oren in the cottage that I live in. good health ?—Yes, but I am weak. 2120. Then, unless you can pick up the 2162. Is your family in good health since wood, you would not be able to bake?- this complaint has been prevalent ?—No, No. they are very sickly ; my wife is Bery ill; I 2121. In winter, what fuel have 1 ou ?- have been obliged to keep a women for her Rotten wood that falls ofl’thE’ trees in waste these six weeks. ground. 2464. Sir T. FREEMANTLE.] Haveyouhad ,

family that,

86

relief ?-Yes ; I went to the doctor, and he came to see her. 2465. Did you apply to the relieving officer?—No. 2466. Do you understand that the parish is to pay him’?-Yes. 2467. By Mr. HARVEY.] Do you attribute your weakness to want of better food ?Yes.

2472.

do you

GEORGE AYLING. the CHAIRMAN.] To what

By belong?—Kirdford.

parish

3301. By Sir J. GRAHAM.] Are there any medical clubs in the union?-No. 3396. By Sir T. FREEMANTLE.] Supposing the wife of an able-bodied man, with an average family, anrl receiving average wages, were to be sick, and he were to obtain an order from a doctor, would that

order be confirmed or disallowed?-Confirmed, and supposing the assistance to be asked on his wife’s expected confinement, the relieving officer would be directed to give him an order for a surgeon to attend in that case. 3401. Is not that giving relief to ablebodied men out of the workhouse ?-.Yes ; but we conceive it to be a case under which they are justified in making the allowance. 3403. And supposing it were a child instead of a wife that was sick, would the labourer have an order for the doctor in that

2473. What is your age?—45. 2481. A farmer’s labourer ?-Yes. 2482. What wages ?—10s. shillings weekly. 2513. Have you, or any of your family, ever been sick ?-Yes, but not ill lately ; my wife was very poorly with this complaint that has gone about. case ?-Immediately. 2515. Had you any medical assistance? 3104. Then, I presume, it is not the pracI to went our doctor. .-Yes, tice at all in your union for any of the la2516. Did he attend her ?-No, I got classes to provide themselves with some medicine. medical assistance?—O, yes, many of them 2518. Had you any difficulty in getting do; those whose wages are above the avethe medical relief ?-No. and who have not a large family, and rage, 2519. Did you apply to the relieving those are the cases in which the order for officer?—No, I went to Mr. Hale. the doctor was disallowed. 3407. Is the Assistant Commissioner aware of your board giving those orders ?-CerSEVENTH DAY. tainly ; and I have never heard him disapTuesday, March 21, 1837. prove of them. 3410. In the case of the wife; is that folMEMBERS PRESENT. lowed up by an application for meat, or Cartwright, Mr. Hume, Mr. bread, or any thing else necessary in conChichester, Mr. Miles, Mr. of her illness ?-If the surgeon Estcourt, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. J. sequence in the column for remarks, parrecommend, Freemantle, Sir T. Scrope, Mr. P. ticular nourishment, the relieving officer is Mr. R. Gordon, Villiers, Mr. C. instructed to procure it. Graham, Sir J. Walter, Mr. 3411. By Mr. GORDON.] State any one of Mr. Harvey, the six cases in which the order given by Mr. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. the officer had not been confirmed by the board ?-I cannot state it without reference Mr. ROBERT RAPER examined. to many books. 3297. By Sir J. GRAHAM.] In sickness 3451. Have you a copy of the obituary of do the poor receive better medical as- the workhouse ?—Yes; I think the average sistance than before the passing of the new of inmates would be about 150. law?-I have no means of knowing what it 3454. What is the average of deaths?— If a labourer or his wife, This register commences 25th Oct. 1835 ; and was previously. or any child, is ill, application is made to the I find, that prior to the present time (the relieving officer, who states, on the order average of persons in the workhouse being which he gives, whether the pauper should 150), there have been 62 deaths, 14 of which go to the surgeon, or the surgeon to him ; were of persons of eighty and upwards, 7 that is, supposing a man is not incapacitatedof persons between seventy and eighty; from walking ; that order is given, by way 7 betwen sixty and seventy; 3 between fifty of loan, till the following Monday; on the and sixty ; none from thirty to fifty ; 2 befollowing Monday the applicant’s name ap- tween twenty and thirty ; none between ten pears in the book, the case is inquired into, and twenty; 3 between five and ten; 1 aged and the order so given to the surgeon is four ; 2 of three years ; 6 of one; and 10 either allowed or disallowed, as the board infants. of guardians think fit. 3457. Sixty-two deaths in the workhouse 3299. By Mr. GORDON.] Supposing it is nearly half the number?—No, they are should be disallowed ?-Then, I believe, the constantly varying. 3459. Sixty-two deaths in 18 months?surgeon is not paid for his first visit, or any visit he had previously made, but that has From June 12th, 1836, to Dec. 30th, 1836, never been the case in six instances. there was no death whatever.

bouring