- Email: [email protected]
Reply to comments by E. Grüger
QLJATERNARY
RESEARCH
12,
154-
15.5 (1979)
Reply to Comments
In response to Griiger’s remarks, I make the following statements. (1) My opinion that the Eemian of Grande Pile is followed by two interglacials (St. Germain I and St. Germain II) was not based: (a) On the age of moraine downstream: The age of the sediments is independent of the age of a moraine situated downstream. In the present case, 1 would have called, after Seret’s studies, the Eemian of Grande Pile
sphere), in September 1976 by Frenzel et crl., 1976; Sibrava et al.. 1977). The participants came to a general agreement that the correlation between Eemian and Riss/ Wtirm is still to be proved, and therefore recommended the use of local stratigraphies. (3) Grande Pile profiles are currently the only published ones for northwestern Europe, that show an uninterrupted record from the present to a glaciation older than Eemian. The classical view is only based on fragmentary profiles of different origins (Zagwijn, 1961: Averdieck, 1967: Menke. 1976: Gruger, in press, among others). Some hiatuses are probably due to the fact that the proper pollen extraction method has not been used. “A correct climatostratigraphic model cannot be reconstructed from incomplete evidence” (Kukla. 1977). (4) The correlation between the early Weichselian (early Glacial) interstadials (Amersfoort, B&up, and Odderade) and St. Germain I, St. Germain II interglacials. or Ognon I. II, and III interstadials, must be examined critically (Woillard. 1978a. 1978b) (a number of ‘% datings are in progress). But I maintain that St. Germain 1 and II show an interglacial vegetational evolution. even of Eemian type. They would have been mistaken for Eemian if they did not occur in a single profile (Woillard, 1975. p. 81)! Moreover, it is possible that some profiles interpreted as Amersfoort. Brorup. and Odderade are synchronous with Ognon I, II, and III. while others, with a more complete evolution, would be synchronous with St. Germain I and II. The possibility also occurs to me that the literature contains pollen diagrams on various “Eemians” (see also Frenzel’s report at sym-
Holsteinian.
(b) On the opinion of Frenzel or of other authors: As a matter of fact, Frenzel’s assumption was greatly fortified by Grande Pile profiles. His own documentation was only based on very fragmentary profiles interpretation of which was difficult, but greatly improved by Grande Pile. (c) On paleooceanographic studies: I discovered the similarity of those curves after it was absolutely evident that the profiles of Grande Pile were genuine and not the result of sediment alteration or slumping (Woillard, 1975, p, 83). (2) It is a fact that the “Eemian” is placed by many authors, following Woldstedt (1958), between Riss and Wtirm. This assumption is indeed now “classical,” but is it therefore true? On the other hand, many students now doubt very much the validity of such a correlation between Eemian and Riss/Wiirm (Kukla, 1977; see also the recent symposium in Dijon, France (December, 1978) on “Problemes de Stratigraphie du Quaternaire en France et dans les Pays Limitrophes”: Volume special de I’AFEQ, in preparation; see also the IGCP excursion of Project 73/l/24 (Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemi154 0033-5894/79/040154-02$02.00/O Copyright @ 1979 by the University of Washington. All rights of reproduction m any form reserved.
by E. Grijger
LETTERSTO
posium in Dijon, 1978). Obviously the difficulties encountered in continental correlations are chiefly due to the number of fragmentary records and the scarcity of continuous sequences. (5) The study of Grande Pile cores is by no means completed. New very complete Begemann borings (Delft, Netherlands) are under study at present, and they enable us to do very closely spaced analyses. But, these new analyses corroborate the evidence of our earlier studies, particularly the reality of Ognon I, II, III interstadials that are older than the predominantly cooling episode that is known to mark the start of the Pleniglacial. REFERENCES Averdieck. F. R. (1967). Die Vegetationsentwicklung des Eem-Interglazials und der Friihwiirmlnterstadiale von OdderadeiSchleswig-Holstein. F/4t7dnn7l~t7ru 2, 101 - 125. Frenzel, B., cf (I/. (Eds.) (1976). Fiihrer zur Exkursionstagung des IGCP Projektes 7311124. ..Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemisphere,” in den Sudvogesen, im nordlichen Alpen und in Tirol. Griiger, E. (1979). Die Seeablagerungen vom Samerberg / Obb. und ihre Stellung im Jungpleistozan. Grologicu Bu~~trric~. in press. Kukla. G. J. t 1977). Pleistocene Land-Sea Correlations. I. Europe. Etrrth-.Scicec,c Rc\,ic,w.s 13, 307-374. Menke. B. t 1976). Neue Ergebnisse zur Stratigraphie und Landschaftsentwicklung im Jungpleistozan
155
THE EDITOR
Westholsteins. Eiszritaltrr trtzd GrgcJn,c*urt 27, 53-68. Sibrava, V. et trl. (Eds.) t 1977). International Geological Correlation Programme (IGCP), Project 7311124. “Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemisphere.” Report 4. Session in Stuttgart-Hohenheim. September 1976. Woillard, G. t 1975). Recherches palynologiques’sur le Pleistocene dans I’Est de la Belgique et dans les Vosges Lorraines. AC/O Geographicrt Lm~anirttsitr 14, l-168. Woillard. G. (1978a). Grande Pile Peat Bog: A Continuous Pollen Record for the Last 140.000 Years. Qurrtrrttary Rc~eLtrcit 9, I -24. Woillard. G. (1978b). “The Last Interglacial-Glacial Cycle at Grande Pile in Northeastern France.” Travaux du Laboratoire de Palynologie et Phytosociologie, Universite Catholique de Louvain: also Bulletin du la SociPri b&r de Gkhtgie. in press. Woldstedt. P. ( 1958). “Das Eiszeitalter.” Grundlinien einer Geologie der Quartars. Stuttgart. Zagwijn. W. H. (1961). Vegetation, climate and radiocarbon datings in the Late Pleistocene of the Netherlands. Part I: Eemian and Early Weichselian. Memoirs Nc~~kerltrnds,
of
the
Nirtru,c,
Grologictrl Sat+
Foundation
itt
thr
14, 15-45.
GENEVIEVE
WOILLARD
Chargh de Recherches FNRS belge Laboratoire de Palynologie et Phytosociologie Institut Botanique UniversitP Catholique Louvain Place Croix-du-Sud, 4 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium
RESEARCH
12,
154-
15.5 (1979)
Reply to Comments
In response to Griiger’s remarks, I make the following statements. (1) My opinion that the Eemian of Grande Pile is followed by two interglacials (St. Germain I and St. Germain II) was not based: (a) On the age of moraine downstream: The age of the sediments is independent of the age of a moraine situated downstream. In the present case, 1 would have called, after Seret’s studies, the Eemian of Grande Pile
sphere), in September 1976 by Frenzel et crl., 1976; Sibrava et al.. 1977). The participants came to a general agreement that the correlation between Eemian and Riss/ Wtirm is still to be proved, and therefore recommended the use of local stratigraphies. (3) Grande Pile profiles are currently the only published ones for northwestern Europe, that show an uninterrupted record from the present to a glaciation older than Eemian. The classical view is only based on fragmentary profiles of different origins (Zagwijn, 1961: Averdieck, 1967: Menke. 1976: Gruger, in press, among others). Some hiatuses are probably due to the fact that the proper pollen extraction method has not been used. “A correct climatostratigraphic model cannot be reconstructed from incomplete evidence” (Kukla. 1977). (4) The correlation between the early Weichselian (early Glacial) interstadials (Amersfoort, B&up, and Odderade) and St. Germain I, St. Germain II interglacials. or Ognon I. II, and III interstadials, must be examined critically (Woillard. 1978a. 1978b) (a number of ‘% datings are in progress). But I maintain that St. Germain 1 and II show an interglacial vegetational evolution. even of Eemian type. They would have been mistaken for Eemian if they did not occur in a single profile (Woillard, 1975. p. 81)! Moreover, it is possible that some profiles interpreted as Amersfoort. Brorup. and Odderade are synchronous with Ognon I, II, and III. while others, with a more complete evolution, would be synchronous with St. Germain I and II. The possibility also occurs to me that the literature contains pollen diagrams on various “Eemians” (see also Frenzel’s report at sym-
Holsteinian.
(b) On the opinion of Frenzel or of other authors: As a matter of fact, Frenzel’s assumption was greatly fortified by Grande Pile profiles. His own documentation was only based on very fragmentary profiles interpretation of which was difficult, but greatly improved by Grande Pile. (c) On paleooceanographic studies: I discovered the similarity of those curves after it was absolutely evident that the profiles of Grande Pile were genuine and not the result of sediment alteration or slumping (Woillard, 1975, p, 83). (2) It is a fact that the “Eemian” is placed by many authors, following Woldstedt (1958), between Riss and Wtirm. This assumption is indeed now “classical,” but is it therefore true? On the other hand, many students now doubt very much the validity of such a correlation between Eemian and Riss/Wiirm (Kukla, 1977; see also the recent symposium in Dijon, France (December, 1978) on “Problemes de Stratigraphie du Quaternaire en France et dans les Pays Limitrophes”: Volume special de I’AFEQ, in preparation; see also the IGCP excursion of Project 73/l/24 (Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemi154 0033-5894/79/040154-02$02.00/O Copyright @ 1979 by the University of Washington. All rights of reproduction m any form reserved.
by E. Grijger
LETTERSTO
posium in Dijon, 1978). Obviously the difficulties encountered in continental correlations are chiefly due to the number of fragmentary records and the scarcity of continuous sequences. (5) The study of Grande Pile cores is by no means completed. New very complete Begemann borings (Delft, Netherlands) are under study at present, and they enable us to do very closely spaced analyses. But, these new analyses corroborate the evidence of our earlier studies, particularly the reality of Ognon I, II, III interstadials that are older than the predominantly cooling episode that is known to mark the start of the Pleniglacial. REFERENCES Averdieck. F. R. (1967). Die Vegetationsentwicklung des Eem-Interglazials und der Friihwiirmlnterstadiale von OdderadeiSchleswig-Holstein. F/4t7dnn7l~t7ru 2, 101 - 125. Frenzel, B., cf (I/. (Eds.) (1976). Fiihrer zur Exkursionstagung des IGCP Projektes 7311124. ..Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemisphere,” in den Sudvogesen, im nordlichen Alpen und in Tirol. Griiger, E. (1979). Die Seeablagerungen vom Samerberg / Obb. und ihre Stellung im Jungpleistozan. Grologicu Bu~~trric~. in press. Kukla. G. J. t 1977). Pleistocene Land-Sea Correlations. I. Europe. Etrrth-.Scicec,c Rc\,ic,w.s 13, 307-374. Menke. B. t 1976). Neue Ergebnisse zur Stratigraphie und Landschaftsentwicklung im Jungpleistozan
155
THE EDITOR
Westholsteins. Eiszritaltrr trtzd GrgcJn,c*urt 27, 53-68. Sibrava, V. et trl. (Eds.) t 1977). International Geological Correlation Programme (IGCP), Project 7311124. “Quaternary Glaciations in the Northern Hemisphere.” Report 4. Session in Stuttgart-Hohenheim. September 1976. Woillard, G. t 1975). Recherches palynologiques’sur le Pleistocene dans I’Est de la Belgique et dans les Vosges Lorraines. AC/O Geographicrt Lm~anirttsitr 14, l-168. Woillard. G. (1978a). Grande Pile Peat Bog: A Continuous Pollen Record for the Last 140.000 Years. Qurrtrrttary Rc~eLtrcit 9, I -24. Woillard. G. (1978b). “The Last Interglacial-Glacial Cycle at Grande Pile in Northeastern France.” Travaux du Laboratoire de Palynologie et Phytosociologie, Universite Catholique de Louvain: also Bulletin du la SociPri b&r de Gkhtgie. in press. Woldstedt. P. ( 1958). “Das Eiszeitalter.” Grundlinien einer Geologie der Quartars. Stuttgart. Zagwijn. W. H. (1961). Vegetation, climate and radiocarbon datings in the Late Pleistocene of the Netherlands. Part I: Eemian and Early Weichselian. Memoirs Nc~~kerltrnds,
of
the
Nirtru,c,
Grologictrl Sat+
Foundation
itt
thr
14, 15-45.
GENEVIEVE
WOILLARD
Chargh de Recherches FNRS belge Laboratoire de Palynologie et Phytosociologie Institut Botanique UniversitP Catholique Louvain Place Croix-du-Sud, 4 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium