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LONDON AND EDINBURGH DEGREES.
1330 learn his views upon the present aspect of University politics. I received replies from both candidates to my queries. That from Sir Philip Magnus I forwarded to you last week, but you veryjustly held over its publication " until Dr. Bristowe had had time to come to a decision with regard to his reply," which dealt very fully with the questions I had put to him. Dr. Bristowe now writes to me that he has come to the conclusion to "withhold his assent to its publication ; for the reason mainly that if it were to be published without comment or explanation, it would almost certainly mislead many of those who might read it, with respect to his present attitude towards the University and his views on educational questions." This decision is the more to be regretted as his published utterances on which voters will naturally fall back assert the University to be a "failure," its results "paltry," the matriculation "outrageously severe," the preliminary scientific examination to be of "exceeding difficulty," &c. At the present crisis Convocation sadly needs to elect a representative man, one familiar with and in harmony with its wishes (as by resolution expressed), and with its long efforts after reforms which, if listened to by the Senate, might have avoided the present complication. Dr. Bristowe, if we only knew what his views really are, might be an acceptable man to medical graduates. It has been too much the fashion in the past to elect a Fellow merely because he is a respected author or teacher. The result has been to add to the Senate men of eminence, no doubt, but with a lack of administrative ability, out of touch with Convocation, and sometimes, alas ! with merely a vigilant regard to the movements of the "jumping cat." I append my letters to the two candidates, and Sir Philip Magnus’s I am, Sirs, your obedient servant, reply.
W. J. COLLINS, M.S., M.D., B.Sc.
Albert-terrace, Gloucester-gate,
June
8th,
1890.
Albert-terrace, Regent’s-park, N.W., May 25th, 1890. DEAR SIR PHILIP,-With reference to the election of Fellow at the University, may I take it that you would now endorse the view expressed in a letter to me of May 14th, 1885, when you were a candidate at a similar election-" I am quite with you as to maintaining the standard of the examinations for medical degrees " ? Other graduates, as well as myself, are anxious to be reassured on this point. Yours sincerely, Sir Philip Magnus, B.Sc., B.A. w J. CoLLixs. Fontainebleau, May, 28th, 1890. MY DEAR COLLINS,-As you know, I have not changed my opinion about our medical and other degrees. I think the standard should be maintained, but that greater facilities .should be afforded to candidates for passing them. The institution of two Preliminary Scientific Examinations in the year was a step in the right direction. Yours very tmly. Dr. Collins. PHILIP MAGNUS. Albert-terrace, Regent’s-park, May 25th, 1890. DEAR DR. BRISTOWE,-I have received a paper requesting me to add my name to the list of your supporters in your candidature for the Fellowship of the University of London. In common with other graduates I feel that at the present juncture it is most important to elect a graduate familiar with, and in harmony with, the wishes of Convocation as expressed in resolution in the matter of the reconstitution of the University and the maintenance of the standard of the medical degrees. May I ask, therefore, whether you hold now the views which you are reported to have given utterance to in 1885? The report appeared in the British Aledical Journal of -.Nlarch 14th in that year, and was subsequently reprinted and circulated. You are there reported to have said-(1) That in your opinion the University of London was a failure, grounding this opinion upon the fact tliit it did not dispense its degrees with the same facility and liberality as the Scotch and Irish Universities ; further, that you could find no evidence of it increasing in popularity, whereas I find that the candidates for the matriculation were, in the year 18851900, as against 1056 in 1875 and 616 in 1865. (2) That" the Preliminary Scientific Examination includes subjects of very great difficulty, and that you do not believe any one of them is necessary for a medical man." May I ask, do you seriously consider a knowledge of physics, chemistry, electricity, and biology entirely superfluous to aproper acquaintance with the theory and practice of medicine? (3) Thatmen who have been in practice twenty years should be allowed to obtain a degree on simply passing the professional examination. May I ask, do you recognise no academical requirements or distinction in a medical University degree, but merely regard it as a stamp of professional experience ? (4) You apparently suggest that the matriculation examination should be so modified as to make io available as the entrance examination for all licensing bodies in London. To effect this would it not require to be reduced to the level of the preliminary examination of the College of Preceptors or Apothecaries’ Hall, and cease to be, what at the present time it is largely recognised as, a high class leaving school examination? Or would you reduce its severity only for those seeking graduation in the medical faculty’! Trusting you will favour me with an early reply to the above queries, put in no captious spirit, but prompted by loyalty to the traditions cf the University and the wishes of Convocation, and anxious that your influence, if elected, would not operate in a, direction which some of us think would be detrimental alike to the University and to education, Yours very trnlv, J. S. Bristowe, Esq., M.D. W. J. COLLINS. .
LONDON AND EDINBURGH DEGREES. To the Editors of THE LANCET. SIRS,-Dr. Bryan Charles Waller’s respectful allusion to the "dreaded sphinx of Burlington-gardens" is refreshing testimony to the fact that even he can look with a certain admiration, not unmingled with awe, on something outside of Edinburgh. Now this is as much as to say that Dr. Waller has this kind of regard for the London M.B. degree. If Dr. Waller will now kindly turn to THE LANCET of March 1st he will find it stated on page 477 that a Special Committee of the Royal College of Physicians recommend "that the second and third professional examinations of the Conjoint Board-i.e., the second and final for L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S.-be accepted, instead of the intermediate and final M.B. examinations" of the University of London. Whether this suggestion be acted upon or not, it is quite sufficient to show the opinion which the gentlemen making it hold of the professional abilities of those who have passed the difficult examinations of the London Colleges of Phy.. sicians and Surgeons. Than those gentlemen none be more admirable judges of the fitness of such a suggestion, for the most of them are examiners both for the M.B. degree and for the L. R. C. P. Lond. and M. R. C. S. The fact that about two-thirds of them are themselves graduates of London is sufficient guarantee against their wishing to give away its unique degrees too lightly. I fear it may that Dr. Waller will not approve of this; comfort him if I assure him that he has altogether mistaken. the calibre, not of the old " London average student," but of the London L. P,. C. P., M. R C. S. That Dr. Waller has any intimate acquaintance with the latter in the lecture-room he must pardon my doubting. He does not go to Edinburgh to be taught ; why should he ? He has unrivalled facilities. for clinical work, and teachers of world-wide renown all around him. No; the "average student"whom Dr. Waller has probably met is one not unknown to us in London. Failing to pass at the London, he goes to the Edinburgh Colleges. I know a dozen such cases. But these do not represent the London student. With regard to Dr. Waller’-comparison between the London L.R.C.P., M R.C.S , and the M.B. of Edinburgh, I may just say that the curriculum for each is strikingly similar, as anyone can ascertain) readily from the books. The Preliminary Examination in Arts is practically identical ; the professional course is nominally about four years, but more frequently five. In each case the student is permitted to qualify when twenty-one years of age, but rarely if ever does so ; and in each course there is a first, a second, and a third professional examination. I suppose that it is this great similarity which induces frequent comparisons between the two. Respecting Dr. Waller’s remarks concerning the markedly practical nature of the Edinburgh man’s work, I may just remark that while the London M.B. and the L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S. must conduct twenty cases of labour before the final examination, the Edinburgh M.B. need attend only six. But it is no part of my purpose to underrate the Edinburgh graduate. When, however. Dr. Waller presents him to us as a black swan, he provokes us to remind him that the Edinburgh M.B. is not unknown in the land-the degree is possessed, and abundantly possessed, by our brothers, our young cousins, and our friends. It multiplies exceedingly, and bids fair to replenish the earth, if not to overpopulate it. Perhaps we shall try to venerate its possessors a little more in future, especially as Dr. Waller kindly dreads the sphinx of Burlington.gardens ; but those whom I know (and they are not a few} are good, jolly young fellows with no shoppy vanity about For their sakes, permit me simply to subscribe them.
could
perhaps
myself, Sirs,
yours
June 10th, 1890.
faithfully,
ONE
WHO MEANS TO PASS THE
SPHINX.
URINE TESTING IN PREGNANCY. To the Editors
of
THE LANCET.
SIRS,-I can assure Dr. Ha1fe that I had not the least intention of being di!scourteous in any way, but I have not seen THE LANCET for a fortnight, as I have been away,, and hence I could hardly have written to him. The words used in Dr. Herman’s paper are very definite. They are-"In accordance with the instructions of my colleague, Dr. Ralfe, the urine was tested by heating," &e.
W. J. COLLINS, M.S., M.D., B.Sc.
Albert-terrace, Gloucester-gate,
June
8th,
1890.
Albert-terrace, Regent’s-park, N.W., May 25th, 1890. DEAR SIR PHILIP,-With reference to the election of Fellow at the University, may I take it that you would now endorse the view expressed in a letter to me of May 14th, 1885, when you were a candidate at a similar election-" I am quite with you as to maintaining the standard of the examinations for medical degrees " ? Other graduates, as well as myself, are anxious to be reassured on this point. Yours sincerely, Sir Philip Magnus, B.Sc., B.A. w J. CoLLixs. Fontainebleau, May, 28th, 1890. MY DEAR COLLINS,-As you know, I have not changed my opinion about our medical and other degrees. I think the standard should be maintained, but that greater facilities .should be afforded to candidates for passing them. The institution of two Preliminary Scientific Examinations in the year was a step in the right direction. Yours very tmly. Dr. Collins. PHILIP MAGNUS. Albert-terrace, Regent’s-park, May 25th, 1890. DEAR DR. BRISTOWE,-I have received a paper requesting me to add my name to the list of your supporters in your candidature for the Fellowship of the University of London. In common with other graduates I feel that at the present juncture it is most important to elect a graduate familiar with, and in harmony with, the wishes of Convocation as expressed in resolution in the matter of the reconstitution of the University and the maintenance of the standard of the medical degrees. May I ask, therefore, whether you hold now the views which you are reported to have given utterance to in 1885? The report appeared in the British Aledical Journal of -.Nlarch 14th in that year, and was subsequently reprinted and circulated. You are there reported to have said-(1) That in your opinion the University of London was a failure, grounding this opinion upon the fact tliit it did not dispense its degrees with the same facility and liberality as the Scotch and Irish Universities ; further, that you could find no evidence of it increasing in popularity, whereas I find that the candidates for the matriculation were, in the year 18851900, as against 1056 in 1875 and 616 in 1865. (2) That" the Preliminary Scientific Examination includes subjects of very great difficulty, and that you do not believe any one of them is necessary for a medical man." May I ask, do you seriously consider a knowledge of physics, chemistry, electricity, and biology entirely superfluous to aproper acquaintance with the theory and practice of medicine? (3) Thatmen who have been in practice twenty years should be allowed to obtain a degree on simply passing the professional examination. May I ask, do you recognise no academical requirements or distinction in a medical University degree, but merely regard it as a stamp of professional experience ? (4) You apparently suggest that the matriculation examination should be so modified as to make io available as the entrance examination for all licensing bodies in London. To effect this would it not require to be reduced to the level of the preliminary examination of the College of Preceptors or Apothecaries’ Hall, and cease to be, what at the present time it is largely recognised as, a high class leaving school examination? Or would you reduce its severity only for those seeking graduation in the medical faculty’! Trusting you will favour me with an early reply to the above queries, put in no captious spirit, but prompted by loyalty to the traditions cf the University and the wishes of Convocation, and anxious that your influence, if elected, would not operate in a, direction which some of us think would be detrimental alike to the University and to education, Yours very trnlv, J. S. Bristowe, Esq., M.D. W. J. COLLINS. .
LONDON AND EDINBURGH DEGREES. To the Editors of THE LANCET. SIRS,-Dr. Bryan Charles Waller’s respectful allusion to the "dreaded sphinx of Burlington-gardens" is refreshing testimony to the fact that even he can look with a certain admiration, not unmingled with awe, on something outside of Edinburgh. Now this is as much as to say that Dr. Waller has this kind of regard for the London M.B. degree. If Dr. Waller will now kindly turn to THE LANCET of March 1st he will find it stated on page 477 that a Special Committee of the Royal College of Physicians recommend "that the second and third professional examinations of the Conjoint Board-i.e., the second and final for L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S.-be accepted, instead of the intermediate and final M.B. examinations" of the University of London. Whether this suggestion be acted upon or not, it is quite sufficient to show the opinion which the gentlemen making it hold of the professional abilities of those who have passed the difficult examinations of the London Colleges of Phy.. sicians and Surgeons. Than those gentlemen none be more admirable judges of the fitness of such a suggestion, for the most of them are examiners both for the M.B. degree and for the L. R. C. P. Lond. and M. R. C. S. The fact that about two-thirds of them are themselves graduates of London is sufficient guarantee against their wishing to give away its unique degrees too lightly. I fear it may that Dr. Waller will not approve of this; comfort him if I assure him that he has altogether mistaken. the calibre, not of the old " London average student," but of the London L. P,. C. P., M. R C. S. That Dr. Waller has any intimate acquaintance with the latter in the lecture-room he must pardon my doubting. He does not go to Edinburgh to be taught ; why should he ? He has unrivalled facilities. for clinical work, and teachers of world-wide renown all around him. No; the "average student"whom Dr. Waller has probably met is one not unknown to us in London. Failing to pass at the London, he goes to the Edinburgh Colleges. I know a dozen such cases. But these do not represent the London student. With regard to Dr. Waller’-comparison between the London L.R.C.P., M R.C.S , and the M.B. of Edinburgh, I may just say that the curriculum for each is strikingly similar, as anyone can ascertain) readily from the books. The Preliminary Examination in Arts is practically identical ; the professional course is nominally about four years, but more frequently five. In each case the student is permitted to qualify when twenty-one years of age, but rarely if ever does so ; and in each course there is a first, a second, and a third professional examination. I suppose that it is this great similarity which induces frequent comparisons between the two. Respecting Dr. Waller’s remarks concerning the markedly practical nature of the Edinburgh man’s work, I may just remark that while the London M.B. and the L.R.C.P., M.R.C.S. must conduct twenty cases of labour before the final examination, the Edinburgh M.B. need attend only six. But it is no part of my purpose to underrate the Edinburgh graduate. When, however. Dr. Waller presents him to us as a black swan, he provokes us to remind him that the Edinburgh M.B. is not unknown in the land-the degree is possessed, and abundantly possessed, by our brothers, our young cousins, and our friends. It multiplies exceedingly, and bids fair to replenish the earth, if not to overpopulate it. Perhaps we shall try to venerate its possessors a little more in future, especially as Dr. Waller kindly dreads the sphinx of Burlington.gardens ; but those whom I know (and they are not a few} are good, jolly young fellows with no shoppy vanity about For their sakes, permit me simply to subscribe them.
could
perhaps
myself, Sirs,
yours
June 10th, 1890.
faithfully,
ONE
WHO MEANS TO PASS THE
SPHINX.
URINE TESTING IN PREGNANCY. To the Editors
of
THE LANCET.
SIRS,-I can assure Dr. Ha1fe that I had not the least intention of being di!scourteous in any way, but I have not seen THE LANCET for a fortnight, as I have been away,, and hence I could hardly have written to him. The words used in Dr. Herman’s paper are very definite. They are-"In accordance with the instructions of my colleague, Dr. Ralfe, the urine was tested by heating," &e.